Dear Mr Williamson

I have recently come across your wheelchair review website. What a great idea, long overdue, much much needed is such an independent source of information. My personal view is that every wheelchair sold, should come with details of your website for the user to provide comments upon their equipment and any such related issues as a legal requirement to the product seller to be able to receive their cheque of payment!! At least then the user would be informed of a database they can comment to if things go wrong as a warning to others and in my sceptical and now growing cynical view the entries of good service and getting to a working excellent product would be like gold dust.!

It is. Almost ALL of the people involved in this rip off industry know nothing, and I include the so called professionals...

Writing this I have just had a thought, has your website had a mention in “Disabled Driver”.

Not as far as I know!

Unfortunately I myself would not be able to find anything complimentary to say about any of the “so-called” professionals, organizations, sales people, etc. involved in the experiences I have been party too during the last 15 years.

Quite frankly, me either! So its a good job I know all I need to on my own... Or I would be like many others, stuck!

The problems I have encountered have been primarily due to the overall know better than the user attitude. Despite the user being prepared to listen to the views of the professionals. The professionals have not given the same courtesy to the wheelchair user. Consequently a whole range of unsatisfactory and frankly shoddy un-professionalisms have transpired, causing the wheel chair user much disappointment, unhappiness, general frustration and mistrust and the bottom line uncomfortable and unsatisfactory wheelchair provision. The only ones who have benefited from the services I have been involved with and experienced are the financial pockets of the suppliers and those who are employed and paid for providing such an abysmal service.

Correct in my experience also...

The user in my experience I know has never benefited and often been left with huge problems, to try to sort out and had no back up service or even a simple understanding of a need of an apology and rectification of a situation. Currently the user I represent is in such a situation for not the first time.

My personal view is the field of providing mobility and associated equipment is frankly an open door to put excessive prices on goods, an opportunity to rip off and the attitude I commonly view is “one size” fits all.

Yes. But to be fair that's partly a financial production problem. An individual solution is simply much more expensive. Wheelchairs/powerchairs are not really mass produced in the same way as say cars are, so the effects of economies of scale, and development costs are less pronounced. But its still cheaper to build 1000 identical powerchairs than 1000 slightly different "custom" ones. And the same then applies to parts and maintenance.

For myself to design manufacture test, modify until its what I want, and retest, (develop) a chair for myself would take me say 6 months. And cost around 10 times as much as a "mass" produced item.

Though I now feel nothing surprises me in this field, I along side that never cease to be gob smacked each time I experience or hear of someone else’s situation. The user must fit the chair instead of the chair being designed to the needs of the user. Additionally, when trying hard to support the user to get their needs listened to and their views and wishes recognized. The attitude is always “but other users think this chair is wonderful.” Etc.

I got exactly that attitude from Sunrise about my front heavy, almost uncontrollable badly programmed chair! Still, I sorted this out myself easily enough because I am fortunate enough to understand what's wrong, and how to sort it out.

Other users do this and that with their bodies to get over the problem. Or the bog standard comments are to chance a range of movements the user has had for all their lives and is limited to, to a range of movements the user has never possibly been able to physically obtain and frankly if they could they probably would not have the mobility impairment that brings them to require the use of a decent workable wheelchair or piece of equipment. In my world the lack of professional communication, understanding, listening skills are rife, before you get to trying to address the issues and personal needs of the individual user and their personal requirements.

After several hundred words of moaning and groaning, possibly driving you to the need to go to the pub, I will attempt to focus on the issue that has drawn me to contact you.

OK, you are preaching to the converted anyway!

I write on behalf of my son Richard who is currently in a situation with a new electric power chair. I could write a thesus on complaining on the goings on surrounding the assessment and provision of the chair itself. Having viewed the review site and many other links. I have come to the clear conclusion that you have considerable knowledge in the technical/mechanical possibilities in relation to wheelchairs. I am wondering if it might be possible for you to consider if I was to put together a lot of photographs and details of the problems Richard is now encountering, if you might have the time be able to take a look and sort of tell me if in your view and knowledge if you think certain things might be possible.

Send pics, and as much detail as you can.

I have a fast connection.

If the pictures are really big, then send them in separate mails.

My mailbox will accept up to 7mb (pretty big) so go ahead!

I will give you some information about Richard who is a young man of 22 whose physical mobility is greatly reduced and restricted by CP. He currently studies computing part-time at Uni, also he works part time for NTL as a technical support engineer.

I didn't think they had one!!!

My own web server, FTP server etc has FAR less downtime than NTLs do...

Four years ago, he was learning to drive, from a mobility supplied VW Caravelle.!! At the time, he had chosen to park his electric wheelchair and transfer to the six way seat. Not an easy task but his choice none the less. Unfortunately, this vehicle was not suitable for Richard, but it was not the vehicles fault. But those prescribing and those that were doing the work on the vehicle. In essence the vehicle was too small for Richard to get into through the tailgate lift from day one and in his particular case his limited neck movement meant he could not do the acrobatic maneuver the mobility rep wanted. This was brought to Motabilities grants committees attention by the assessor of the vehicle. But this “small fact” was ignored. This vehicle was the only option available to Richard on the scheme. (Drivers Fund)! And faced with this or nothing Richard progressed the drive solution with me around anyway to watch and guide him getting in through the back of the vehicle. Richards experience was as I will put it a like it or lump it attitude and one should be grateful to be mobile. The fact that he was putting all his mobility allowance in to the scheme meant nothing. Motability concentrated on the additional £10,000 they were putting. (Total cost some £38,000 for what was a second hand vehicle as well.) To cut a huge story down. There were many electrical gadgets which Richard was told he needed on the vehicle, and I am sure with my lay persons knowledge that if the job had been done properly Richard would not have had the problems he did. Ranging, from being locked in the vehicle to out of the vehicle to it constantly intermittently breaking down and then finally just packing up whilst I was driving him home from work one evening, thankfully we had just come off the motorway on to a country road. Fortunately for us we did not have an accident but the process was rather scary since we lost the electrics on a hill in moving traffic. We had no power whatsoever and the handbrake/gears would not work. Thus all the technically stuff, to allow Richard to get out of the vehicle in which he was travelling that night as a passenger packed in too.

I could not help him, as I had to keep my foot on the footbrake to stop the vehicle rolling back down the hill. Thankfully mobile phones and the RAC got us eventually out of the vehicle after sitting like this for some half an hour. It was later proven that the vehicle had “live wiring” all the time we had it and was a potential fire risk. The nut shell of that story was incompetence by the garage doing the adaptations, one of motabilities better garages I am told!!

Well I don't trust garages. At all. Or in fact anyone really! Most of the population are non too bright. This includes doctors and professional people. Once you accept this you are far less disappointed when everything fails...

Heaven help us from the worse ones, which I think we are about to engage battle with now!! Richard and I eventually had to seek the services of a solicitor to get Richards situation sorted out. Motability did everything they could to point the finger at my own driving!!, or Richards learning novice problems! It took some 18 months of the solicitor’s involvement before they finally accepted responsibility. We actually reported the vehicle to the vehicle inspectorate, though by the time they had impounded the vehicle, certain parts had been removed. Anyway this is all another story. Though now the new chair with which Richard is having so many difficulties is also involved in the new driving plan. So if the chair is not sorted out Richard is up a gum tree well and truly.

The solicitor managed to get a replacement vehicle in situa. A Mercedes Benz sprinter.

Which is now at the next chosen garage of mobilitys choice waiting for Richard to have his next fitting. However, reverting back to the Caravelle riving plan Richard had the choice of either locking in his electric chair and transferring to a 3 way seat.

As I do... And its difficult.

Or if during the learning to drive process this method provide too difficult etc for Richard to master. It was agreed in the package that motability would change the vehicle internal parts to allow Richard to drive from his wheelchair. At the time Richard did not have a comfy electric chair. He had a Celt NHS, which was frowned on by Motability as it is not crash tested. His choice was to transfer manually, though the set up was poor so he could never really see if he could master it. During the learning to drive process I was around to help if need be. But in the overall process this would be no good for Richard to be independent.

However, when the replacement vehicle came, Motability then told Richard he had to make the choice, either drive from his electric chair. Or drive from the three way seat, but neither plan could revert to the other, without going back to committee. (About 18 months-24 months duration) and without Richard putting a significant more amount of money into the scheme. At the time, having had so many problems, Richard just wanted to get behind the wheel and learn to drive. He was also going through a process of being supplied a new power chair, through Access to Work, though he had never tried the chairs at that point. He told Motability he was going for a Permobil which is crash tested and comes apparently with a good lock in device. The outcome was Richard choose to drive from his wheelchair heavily pursued to make an either or choice in the interest of financial savings for other customers as motability explained. But the driving scheme had to be put on hold until the chair arrived. That decision was made in September last year. The next appointment for the vehicle adaptations is in April this year.

In the meantime Richard took delivery of his new wheelchair 4 weeks ago. The issues with the chair are so great. That there is no way that Richard will be able to use this chair to drive from.

Why?

Could this not have been ascertained before you got the chair?

He is currently using the chair for work (because he says he does not have the heart to tell his employers all the problems) when he gets home he is in such a state of discomfort and this chair is clearly affecting his quality of life.

So, the problems with Richards chair are causing him huge heartache, and much difficulty in dealing once again the “Wheelchair professionals.” All the issues and difficulties he is currently experiencing he himself clearly pointed out at the assessments etc what he would need, what he had to do with his body etc. and if certain issues were not addressed what the problems to himself would be. Basically in a nutshell. His personal observations and requests have been ignored and he is sitting in a chair that is causing him great discomfort. He can not alter his position in the manner in which he normally would do.

You should have recorded this either on tape, or on paper, so that when they ignored the issues (as they inevitably will) you can prove that it was a requirement.

Richard has asked for my support with the company and Access to Work to try to get the issues sorted out. I am aware that Access to Work are only to happy to try to get the issues sorted out but they have no base knowledge and don’t know where to go other than to deal with the supplying representative.

You need to get an independent assessment done by a "ahem" professional, and also do your own. In writing of course.

I have my reservations about the company Permobil. Since after two separate appointments and the company rep bringing three of their chairs to our home. One chair was brought over from Holland specifically to demonstrate the standup aid. It was clear from the beginning that no one complete chair provided what Richard needed as it was. So the idea was to put the relevant bits from the three into a “customized” chair for Richard. I understood that customized meant precisely that but in Richards’s case it on arrival of the product it clearly does not.

If they didn't do as they claimed they would then you should not have accepted the chair, and even now they are in breach of their "contract" but you have no proof of what they said.

All the demonstration chairs had flip up foot plates. Richard wanted to be able to put his footplates up at his choice for a number of personal reasons. He could not bend forward to do this task. So flip up footplates on any chair would have meant him not being able to independently sort out his footplates. Flip up footplates were a no starter for Richard even with an electric aid, he could not move his own feet forward etc. The permobil chair was not designed apparently for any swing to the side footplates.

Then either you needed a different chair, or a truly custom modification that exactly fitted his requirements. (I personally hate flip up, or swing away footplates, so I had to throw away my swing out ones, and make my own on my F55s Sunrise chair.

Which Richard previously managed to swing to the side, but with cope able levels of difficulty and often the need for my help to get them in place in the first instance. Moving the scenario forward Richard could not drive with flip up footplates either. He likes to sit with his feet on the floor when not moving around.

Though I am sure Richard is not the only user who would have difficulties with flip up footplates. Rather than except that this was the case, the company rep tried to teach Richard how to lift up his legs to put the flip up footplates down and explained users found different ways once they had the chair.!!!!!!!!Richard maintained his position that his body works as it does and the ways he gets things done are his ways and though he was reasonable minded to other options, his legs did not work to enable him to do what the rep wanted. From memory I thank that took Richard and I some 3 hours to get the point across to the rep.

The rep is simply selling his product. He can't offer you a different (someone else's) chair. If their chair was unsuitable you really should have chosen a different one.

Richard was then told that the only other option was a stand aid type footplate. This seemed great at the time. Took away any issues with worrying about footplates. Though Richard pointed out several things that he still need even with the stand aid footplate.

This is for Richard to decide though. Suitable or not? He is the buyer.

Richard demonstrated his needs in his old Celt chair. Basically he was told things would be done and when the chair arrived they were not.

With the "mods" done = suitable.

Without the mods done = unsuitable?

Then you should not have accepted the chair because they broke their part of the bargain. (As I could already have predicted...)

When the chair was delivered, Richard immediately sussed the issues as once.

Tell them to take it back right there & then because it was unsuitable and they didn't do as they said they would.

But the rep wanted to show Richard how to lie in the chair with all its electric features to allow Richard to get back into the chair so to speak.

Yes but this has nothing to do with the issues.

In other words the rep wanted Richard to go into lying down position and push on his bottom with his arms on the arm pads to shove himself back! Richard acknowledged the electric features were great and he himself would have found some very advantageous uses but probably not the uses the rep wanted.

Its not up to the rep.
They have already failed to do as they said they would.

But Richard still wanted and needed to be able to sit in the chair in his normal upright position, put his feet slightly behind himself and push on the arms and his feet to alter his position. The back of the stand aid, prevented Richard from getting his feet back, the upright in the middle of the stand aid prevented Richard from putting his feet together if he could use the back of the stand aid to push from if he could manage to lift his feet up, (by pulling on his trousers) the good 3” height of the back of the stand aid meant that he could not get his legs up to push. Several more hours went by with the rep trying to pursue why Richard could not do it another way and equally me telling the rep that he should be listening to his customer etc.

Then the stand aid footrest is unsuitable.
You should have tried one before you purchased it.
Or studied the details closely and seen this would be a problem.
Remember that the guy selling the chair is just the same as a car salesman.
He will try to convince you of anything to get a sale.
He is not an independent assessor or OT or anything.

To buy it or not is still your decision.

So at the moment I am in the process of phoning the Access to Work team yet again and having a damn good moan.

Where Richard is that he is now feeling he can not carry on in this uncomfortable chair which removes his physical abilities and choices.

As I see it, this is a bit of both of your faults.
Partly because you were gullible and believed the salesman, and because you didn't get the specifics of what was going to be "changed" and because you accepted the chair without these changes, while knowing it was unsuitable.

And partly because the salesman will sell you anything just to pay his wages.

Though initially he felt awful that his place of work had contributed to this chair, he felt he could not speak to his manager at work about it. So for the last couple of weeks he has been enduring the situation. Which I am mortified on his behalf for.

To do the best for Richard that I can , I have given you an awful lot of information, much you may quite reasonable feel is irrelevant to our request for info re the Permobil however, on a knowledge of what people go through and in your role of putting up the database and in relation to what hinges on getting the chair right for Richard which I am sure you yourself clearly understand from your own experiences. I feel I must give this information.

OK. so like me your options are a different custom made footrest etc. Probably the easiest.

OR

A different chair, and send that one back to the manufacturer on the grounds that they didn't do the extra modifications (but you didn't say what they were) that they said that they would?

So where Richard is now is:

The cushion suggested by the rep and OT without any trial by Richard can not be used.

Then the OT who advised you should be called back for some further advice, and the rep is in no position to advise on medical matters, as a) he is probably not qualified to do so, and b) is biased as to his own products.

The discomfort is too great. So, currently on a daily basis Richard has to use the Celt cushion which has its own problems and overall Richard is in much discomfort. We are now engaging horns with the wheelchair service to see if we can get a camcad cushion cut for the Permobil. Richard has an appointment at the end of April.

Have a look at the one I use, about the best "gel" cushion available at a rather high price (free from wheelchair services though) and this is a Jay2 cushion.

The Permobil rep states that there are no longer arms available or that can be made for the wheelchair.

Bulshit... Anything can be made! Or modified...
Do you mean higher?
Or longer back to front?

Send me pictures!

Why didn't you realise that you needed longer arms when you tried it to start with?
Because once you decide that that's the chair you want, then you have bought it!

Its very hard to go back to say Ford Motor Company and say your armrests are too short! You see the car in a showroom, if you like what they offer then you buy.

I can not understand why one could not make a special one of set at the correct length that Richard needs for his personal requirements of pushing and transfers.

You can. I did. I modified my own ones because I wanted the chair narrower, with longer arm rests, and higher so I can do pressure relief lifts.

The rep keeps quoting standard factory made and I keep pursuing the original idea of what we were told of custom made. When I ask the question I get the response

They can not be made,

Anything "can" be made.

But they are not going to go to the trouble of custom building parts with the cost and development and time that this entails.

To build a chair this way would quadruple its price in time and labour.

This is why I said earlier that I would NEVER expect that they would do any "custom" work. And if they claimed this then you needed it in writing, or on paper.

You fell for the salesmans pitch.

He got a sale, because he reassured you that "various things" would be done that he knew full well would not.

All he had in mind was a different footplate.

but no technical/mechanical explanation of why not. Though a custom made chair is surely made to the customers requirements within the capabilities of the technical/mechanical issues

Err. No.... Cost must come into this.

It does say at the top of their page (copied here above) that they can do custom solutions, and maybe they can. But you need the specifics and the details in writing so you can both see what will be done and for how much?

You made the mistake of believing the salesman's bullshit.

Wheelchair purchases are exactly the same as any other. But in fact even easier for the salesman because there is far less understanding of the subject by the end user. And because its a "medical" device the end user is more inclined to believe that the sales rep has their interests at heart.

The rep is going to make some longer type grab handles to sort of extend from the arms.

Richard has agreed this might work.

It might. But at best it will be a bodge. Just make some longer arns!

Additionally, when Richard is sitting in the permobil and moves from point A to point B particularly in a vehicle there is much movement in the chair seat. This is something personal to Richard that he feels. He does not feel he can learn to drive with so much movement in the chair seat. The permobil rep states many people use this chair in that way.

It should NOT move.
I don't care how many others use it like this! It does not make it right.

Though at the two assessments Richard drove the chairs up hills and on the road, he never felt the movement, that he did when his chair was eventually delivered. The chair does have suspension. But even though it is now as hard as it can be, so the ride is now bumpy Richard can still feel the movement in the chair part of the permobil itself. This he feels he will no way be able to tolerate when having one hand on a steering knob and the other on a push pull system of braking and accelerating.

No and neither would I
What kind of seat? What kind of mounting?
It needs fixing or re designing...

I am lead to believe the Permobil is a Rolls Royce of power chairs.

???

It may well be, but until it is suitable to Richards needs, it remains a very expensive white elephant.

I would be most sincerely grateful for any relevant thoughts, views or opinions and also, can you tell me where I might possibly look to view a range of power chairs with the options to use as a drive from wheelchair solution if all fails with the permobil.

Here is the problem!
There is nowhere.
Other than searching the web.

That's the reason I want to get loads of reviews of different chairs on my pages!

Its also the reason why you have bought an obviously incorrect chair for Richards needs.

OTs cant help, they know less than you now do.

Mobility shops only help if you IGNORE the salesman and just check everything out that you can find for yourself.

You know the requirement far better than all the "experts" that are supposed to know.

I would draw to a conclusion by sincerely thanking you for your time in reading my correspondence. Apologizing for the lack of ability to summarize and concise the information down more.

I am not knowledable regarding the sizes of mail box in relation to the photographs. So, Richard will send these independently to you, if you feel that having a look would not be too much of an inconvenience and added issue amongst your own.

All the problems you mentioned can be sorted, but its finding someone that can/will do it that's the real problem.
I would do it but I have no space, and am paralysed from the chest down so need help all the time to do this stuff!

Send me pics (Your son knows NTLs mail box size!)